[Yudster]

Armistice day is about the people who experienced - and experience - war, and the families who experienced it with them. War might be ridiculous but Armistice day is about the people, and they aren't.

[Boboff]

I'm guessing that was part of your hilarious "taking the piss out of war on Armistice Day" routine?

Why should Armistice Day be different from any other day? War should be ridiculed at every opportunity. Especially WWI.

foot-loose wrote:Big * or no *, no "lol's" allowed. NEVA!


You qualify as both with that statement.

[MK Chris]

Armistice day is about the people who experienced - and experience - war, and the families who experienced it with them. War might be ridiculous but Armistice day is about the people, and they aren't.

Just because this deserves to be read again.

[Munki Bhoy]

War might be ridiculous but Armistice day is about the people, and they aren't.

What a ridiculously sweeping statement that is.

[MK Chris]

Obviously by 'people', Yudster meant the people who are often forgotten - not warmongers and criminals.

[Munki Bhoy]

I would hope so.

Maybe it's just me, but I happen to see Armistice Day as a day to reflect on how sad it is that so many lives are lost through the utter stupidity of war. The fact people continue to die due to one war or another is just proof that the human race is too stupid to have learned from its mistake or to have found a better way to resolve differences.

And as stupid as war is, I've yet to read about one that's more stupid than World War I. So to me Armistice Day is the perfect day to reflect on the stupidity of it all.

If that seems insensitive to those who have lost loved ones due to war, maybe it is. But I'll bet somewhere along the line that loved one was lost due to the stupidity of someone. They always are. And the saddest thing is it's rarely the stupidity of the person who died. Because at least then we'd be one stupid person less in the world. Although even that would be a failure and a tragic loss, I'd rather they just stopped being so stupid.

[Yudster]

We all have that wish about various people from time to time.

[Boboff]

Defending yourself against aggressive armies of dictatorial despots, yes how silly.

Munki - you are very naive. Obviously War is not a good outcome, but nations must defend themselves. These soldiers past and present believe in what they are doing, protecting you with your opinions on things. Your belief, Stupid..........

[MK Chris]

Aaaanyway... Zoot, Yudster and Johnny1989 joint winners this week. Each PM me a year and I'll pick (in my opinion) the best one.

[Munki Bhoy]

boboff, you assume the stupidity is always on both sides. Afghanistan boils down to "my God's bigger than your God" - as per * usual. We'll not even go into Iraq. (If only we hadn't...)

[Boboff]

You see, you are so wrong.

You can not believe everything you read in the press.

I am not saying I know the answers, but your "god" thing is so completely off base.

Iraq was a success in many ways, but like all things, only time will tell. ( A strong Country backing Palestine could cause some serious world order crisis)

Afghanistan is a country so far behind ours it's unbelievable. They wipe their bums with pebbles, and you don't want to use the Toilet on a Friday as Thursday night is "Man Love Night" (something to do with being the child of a man, ginger beards a big turn on as well.)

Like I say I don't know the answer, and I feel the risk of friends being involved, but at the end of the day, those soldiers are doing a great job, and you saying it's stupid, belittles them and the wonderful sacrifices they are making. If there is only a 5% less of a chance that some Brummy will not go and train how to carry a back pack into the shops when you're out shopping, with your family, that surely must be a great thing, and a thing that deserves a little more reasoned thought than you have shown on this subject to date? eh?

[Munki Bhoy]

Nice. Naive, racist and ignorant. The hallmarks of stupid.

[Boboff]

I am not sure what you mean, so I will ask that you clarify.

[Munki Bhoy]

Firstly, you seem to be under this misguided belief that I'm against the troops in Afghanistan. I'm not, I happen to believe that's rather necessary because the STUPID Taliban have to be dealt with. But that still comes down to their ridiculous concept of "my God (Allah) is bigger than your God" and everything that stems from that. To be honest, I'm against the ridiculously low numbers of troops in Afghanistan with very little help from their own government or their allies. It's as if we've gone at it half arsed, which is again STUPID. All that achieves is you get people dead needlessly to the point that the majority of people in this country want them brought home again, and so we end up with a Taliban controlled Afghanistan once more, bringing us back to where we were to start with - except now we've got a load of dead folk. Oh well done, if that's not stupid I don't know what is.

Secondly, you seem to believe that Iraq was some kind of success. On what measure? That we got rid of a dictator? I suppose we did get rid of him. Is Iraq safer now that he's gone? Not really, there's more innocent lives left from insurgents in that country than there ever was under Saddam. It was a political nightmare for the countries involved in - lets face it - a lie of a war. If they'd said "we're going to get rid of Saddam" then fair enough, but the weapons of mass destruction thing was just plain stupid and has probably given the US and the UK even more enemies than they started with. To call that a success is naive at best and ignorant of the bigger picture at worst. Yes, the people have some form of democracy now. At what cost?

As for your comments about the Afghan's... well, if you don't realise that's racist and ignorant then there's something clearly wrong.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need the troops to go anywhere. But there's far too many stupid people in the world that think they're right, everyone else is wrong and if they're not with us their against us. The troops, for the most part, are there to protect us from that and good luck to every one of them. But until we get to that ideal world, I'm going to spend every Remembrance Day remembering what a complete waste it is that so much precious life is lost through the stupidity of others.

[Latina]

But that still comes down to their ridiculous concept of "my God (Allah) is bigger than your God" and everything that stems from that.

Eh? Bigger than whose God?

Also, whilst many people would agree with your points, it is not what Remembrance Day is about. You have the freedom to hijack it (or indeed this thread) if you choose, just don't expect people not to react to that.

[Yudster]

I don't think Munki had any such expectation to be fair. Yes, people have reacted, but Munki has responded to that without escalating things. I think he's made his point very well - whilst I don't share it, I at least now understand why he holds it and that's an improvement on most of the rows and arguments you see here. If we need an example of how to have a discussion with diametrically opposing views without it descending into nonsense, could this be it?

[Boboff]

As for your comments about the Afghan's... well, if you don't realise that's racist and ignorant then there's something clearly wrong.

Everything else I can see your point, but this is fact, and as such how can it be racist.

The powers that be spent millions building a new safe area to house the politicians in, within one day the toilets were blocked with pebbles! (This is first hand information not seen in the newspaper or on internet)

How can I be ignorant when this is fact, if you do not believe it's true, you are in fact the ignorant one.

As for the War in Iraq, I see little point in trying to explain to you further as you clearly are of a mind to ignore any facts presented to you, and use inflammatory language when you are not agreed with.

Munki, when you put your point you do so well, but you are too quick to use words like stupid naive racist ignorant without any backup, I find that very irritating, especially given I can imagine them said in the no * it all Glaswegian accent.

However your last post displays that you are not a namby pacifist, but someone who believes that the job needs to be done better, quicker, smarter. I am with you 100% on that one. The Politicians are in the main arses, but they are accountable to us, the voters, and as such their hands are tied in many instances. As for the religion being stupid, well that happens, religion will normally be behind most wars, but they are peoples beliefs. Personally I don't think I could ever hold a belief so strongly that I would be willing to die for it, I am that shallow. These people, born out of hardship and abuse, can. If you sort the society, you may well be able to sort the fundamentalist beliefs. None of these things I can see as being stupid.

I don't think Munki had any such expectation to be fair. Yes, people have reacted, but Munki has responded to that without escalating things. I think he's made his point very well - whilst I don't share it, I at least now understand why he holds it and that's an improvement on most of the rows and arguments you see here. If we need an example of how to have a discussion with diametrically opposing views without it descending into nonsense, could this be it?

Well it could be, but butt out smelly drawers.

[Yudster]

butt out smelly drawers.

Ok. Butting out. And doing the laundry.

[Latina]

I don't think Munki had any such expectation to be fair. Yes, people have reacted, but Munki has responded to that without escalating things. I think he's made his point very well - whilst I don't share it, I at least now understand why he holds it and that's an improvement on most of the rows and arguments you see here. If we need an example of how to have a discussion with diametrically opposing views without it descending into nonsense, could this be it?

I didn't mean to escalate things. But I read the timing of such comments - in two separate threads - as being purposefully provocative. I could have been wrong... these things are hard to judge.

EDIT: I'm butting out too.

[Yudster]

I don't think you escalated anything either! This is getting complicated.

[Munki Bhoy]

Everything else I can see your point, but this is fact, and as such how can it be racist.

The powers that be spent millions building a new safe area to house the politicians in, within one day the toilets were blocked with pebbles! (This is first hand information not seen in the newspaper or on internet)

How can I be ignorant when this is fact, if you do not believe it's true, you are in fact the ignorant one.

I'll give you this one, I never heard that story. The first time you mentioned it, it just sounded like it was some kind of backward stereotype. So okay, I'll admit ignorance on that one.

As for the War in Iraq, I see little point in trying to explain to you further as you clearly are of a mind to ignore any facts presented to you, and use inflammatory language when you are not agreed with.

A bit harsh, but when it comes to Iraq I see it as a lot of good, a lot of bad, and a total lie as to why we were there in the first place. I'm not sure anyone disagrees with that. The next ten years or so will tell whether Iraq is better off. What I'm fairly certain about is the Kurds in Northern Iraq are better off. No tinpot dictator gassing them any more.

Munki, when you put your point you do so well, but you are too quick to use words like stupid naive racist ignorant without any backup, I find that very irritating, especially given I can imagine them said in the no * it all Glaswegian accent.

Now that's definitely racist, but since it's against me I'm not going to let it bother me! I'm grown up enough to not let words get to me (which is more than can be said for most of the football obsessed Glasgow - but that's a different argument)

However your last post displays that you are not a namby pacifist, but someone who believes that the job needs to be done better, quicker, smarter. I am with you 100% on that one. The Politicians are in the main arses, but they are accountable to us, the voters, and as such their hands are tied in many instances. As for the religion being stupid, well that happens, religion will normally be behind most wars, but they are peoples beliefs. Personally I don't think I could ever hold a belief so strongly that I would be willing to die for it, I am that shallow. These people, born out of hardship and abuse, can. If you sort the society, you may well be able to sort the fundamentalist beliefs. None of these things I can see as being stupid.

I have no problem with beliefs in general. It's trying to impose your beliefs on others I have a problem with. Which is pretty much were the line between regular Muslims and Islamic Fundamentalists is drawn. I know it's not quite as simple as that, but it's a fairly large part of it.

Oh, and I'd love to be a namby pacifist. Just as soon as the rest of the World decides they want to be too, then it will be practical.

[Yudster]

I have friends in Northern (Kurdish) Iraq. It certainly is a much safer place to be these days they tell me.

[chrysostom]

quick note - racism and xenophobia are very different things

[Boboff]

As are a glockenspiel and a xylophone.

Thank you Munki.

I used to employ a number of Kurdish people and a number of them I thought allot of. As a bunch of people they are very hard working and close knit. I saw personally their reaction to the news of Sadams downfall etc, and for one group of people the argument over weapons of mass destruction etc was irrelevant, the fact that the bloke who had ordered soldiers to rape their mothers and sisters, kill there fathers and burn their houses was not in power any more gave them a huge sense of pride in what we had done.

[chrysostom]

no need to be a dick, i was merely stating that the negative comments you made about the afghan/scottish (i'm not really sure anymore) people was a product of xenophobia and not racism - absolving you of the claims of racism, you're merely a xenophobe.